Forums - MvC2: My full analysis/comparison of AHVB and Ryu's TK Shinku Hadoken Show all 29 posts from this thread on one page Forums (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/index.php) - Strategy & Tactics (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=10) -- MvC2: My full analysis/comparison of AHVB and Ryu's TK Shinku Hadoken (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=51378) Posted by KaiSing on 01:10:2002 03:48 AM: MvC2: My full analysis/comparison of AHVB and Ryu's TK Shinku Hadoken Today, i was just using my low tier team of ryu/rogue/ken against a good sent, meaning i was pretty much screwed from the start. Halfway through the match, sent pulled off a HSF. I decided to try my luck, and pulled off a TK Shinku Hadoken on reaction. To my surprise, Ryu won, and sent got beamed. I still lost the match, but it still got me thinking. Whenever i tried AHVBing the HSF on instinct, Cable would either lose or trade hits. So why the hell would ryu beat a HSF when pulling off his TK super on reaction? Then it hit me. RYU HAS FASTER RELEASE THAN CABLE ON HIS SUPER. Let's put it this way... The AHVB is one of the fastest supers in the game. We can all agree that it has instant startup. But it's obvious it doesn't have instant release/execution. Viscant covered this b4 somewhere. Example, Magneto dashes into cable, and cable pulls off AHVB on reaction when magz is right in his face, Magz can still block by holding back. As fast as AHVB is, it's not instantaneous release/execution. Ken's Shoryureppa and Juggz headcrush have instant startup AND instant release, meaning if you aren't blocking when the super screen flashes and you're right next to them, you'll eat the super. Storm's lightning storm doesn't have instant startup, but it DOES have instant release. And Ryu's TK shinku hadoken also has instant release. Let's take the same example of magz dashing in with ryu. Magz charges at ryu, ryu pulls off a TK Shinku Hadoken at point blank range. If magz isn't holding back upon the flashing screen, ryu's beam will fire into his face. Still confused? Here's some diagrams of the AHVB and the TK Shinku Hadoken. Say this is Cable's AHVB: <===========[[[[*Cable here* ******1***** Key: [[= Cable's gun. (Safe zone to be) <==== The Beam And this is ryu's TK Shinku Hadoken: (xxxxxxxxxxx-*Ryu here* *3***2**1* Key (xxx: The beam (note: diagrams not drawn to scale) as you can see, i've numbered off certain parts of each beam. Ryu's shinku hadoken has 3 quick animations before the beam fully reaches across the screen. However, section 1, point blank, is instantaneous and is released faster than part 1 of cable's AHVB. The thing about cable's beam is that it only takes one animation to reach all the way across the screen. But since it is executed more slowly, that would give time for Sent's drones to reach the safe zone before the AHVB develops, meaning cable gets hit. just something i thought i'd share. Feel free to comment, disagree, or whatever. Posted by rusbar on 01:10:2002 03:57 AM: um. . .what does the tk stand for? is this like excuting an ahvb but instead it's a shinkuu hadoken? Posted by KaiSing on 01:10:2002 04:00 AM: TK stands for Tiger Knee. So yeah, it's the AHVB version of the Shinku Hadoken. Posted by InvincibleStorm on 01:10:2002 04:04 AM: quote: Originally posted by rusbar um. . .what does the tk stand for? is this like excuting an ahvb but instead it's a shinkuu hadoken? tk stands for tiger knee and yes it is.as for the thread this is good info but not too useful tho. Posted by KaiSing on 01:10:2002 04:09 AM: yeah. but i thought it would be useful for those who happen to be using ryu against sent. As an experienced team shoto user, i can safely say that sent is a shoto's worst nightmare along with cable and spiral. Just thought this info might even the odds a little more. Posted by KaiSing on 01:10:2002 04:33 AM: testing... Posted by BlackShinobi on 01:10:2002 05:55 AM: You are screwed if your not blocking at close range. I used to use that with Ryu but I it still not worth it. Tiger Knee Shinkuu Hadoukens leave you screwed if they are blocked though. For some reason Ryu is contractually obligated to float in mid air even though his super finished 5 second earlier. Even if you get hit you can still roll and get up behind Ryu before he can block again. Posted by DoomsdayKen on 01:10:2002 05:57 AM: He's right though that is good info. I should know. I really like to use Ryu in MvC2 for some reason... I like you found out that little trick while fighting Sent a while back. I just never thought I'd have a practical use for it. That was until like a month ago when I won a local console tourney with that team under my name. And I did happen to fight Magneto, Storm, Sentinel, Cable, and Storm with that team. Coming up this weekend though I'm going to try my luck with Ryu at an out-of-state tourney. Gotta see how far he can go. Peace. Posted by DoomsdayKen on 01:10:2002 06:02 AM: quote: Originally posted by BlackShinobi Tiger Knee Shinkuu Hadoukens leave you screwed if they are blocked though. For some reason Ryu is contractually obligated to float in mid air even though his super finished 5 second earlier. That maybe true, but after about I'd say about a second, he can block, seeing as how you superjumped. Now I know that second won't do you a whole lot of good against a lot of instant beam supers but for certain characters that need to get in close to do damage it'll save you. If I remember right, if you do force someone like Magneto or Storm to block it, they can't dash over it time to get a free lick. Well, thats all. Peace. Posted by KaiSing on 01:10:2002 06:11 AM: actually, magz can dash in time to launch ryu. Storm, from all the way across the screen, may have some trouble, but anywhere near 3/4ths to a half screen is no trouble, since she has a lot of range on her launcher. And as for using ryu in a tourney, well, i wouldn't say he's tourney caliber yet. I've been using Ryu for a long time, and he's one of my main characters now. I've been experimenting with my Ryu/Rogue/Ken or Cyke team, and have been able to rape a lot of well played rushdown teams by having rogue setup ryu's semi infinite in the corner. I still have to test waters with this team at SHGL when i go for the first time in the near future. Posted by TS on 01:10:2002 11:02 AM: quote: Originally posted by KaiSing actually, magz can dash in time to launch ryu. Depends on the situation, actually. If Mags blocks it in the air, then he can't, same with anyone else. If you're all the way across the screen, I don't think he can get to you either... Only thing that can punish full-screen MOB is AHVB, and I think recovery time on TK Shinkuu Hadoken is similar. And just so you know, jumping Shinkuu Hadoken has different recovery from the TK/Super cancel one. Not sure if the unfly one is different too, but it might be. quote: Storm, from all the way across the screen, may have some trouble, but anywhere near 3/4ths to a half screen is no trouble, since she has a lot of range on her launcher. Are you sure this is blocked and not just if she ducks it? because that's different. quote: And as for using ryu in a tourney, well, i wouldn't say he's tourney caliber yet. I've been using Ryu for a long time, and he's one of my main characters now. I've been experimenting with my Ryu/Rogue/Ken or Cyke team, and have been able to rape a lot of well played rushdown teams by having rogue setup ryu's semi infinite in the corner. Please explain about the Ryu semi infinite. You get the relaunch HK combo to work, or is it something new? Good to see other MvC2 Ryu players. I used to play him all the time, though I haven't been able to play MvC2 for a while now. So how you guys play him? Oh yeah, interesting about the instant-release thing...I was gonna post and argue with you, until I read the part about Storm's Lightning Storm... I was gonna tell you that the Shinkuu Hadoken travels across the screen in parts, so it couldn't be faster than AHVB which does so in one big part...but then I thought about supers releasing fast, and maybe that first part gets out super quick... Sounds like what's going on, and I will definitely do some testing with MvC2, when I finally get the damned game... One last thing...try Hadoken xx Shinkuu Hadoken vs HSF or crouching Fierce xx HSF sometime...would like to see how it works. Hadoken xx Shinkuu Hadoken beats a lot of things (Icebeams, Unibeams, fireball xx Soul Eraser, done AFTER the screen pause, etc...most beams, really...), so you never know. Posted by aks216 on 01:10:2002 09:01 PM: actually, cable's ahvb DOES have instant execution. the reason why you can BLOCK is because of cable's superjump frames. when he superjumps to ahvb, you can block before the flash. but if cable does ahvb and you are not blocking before the flash, you will get hit. Posted by KaiSing on 01:10:2002 09:17 PM: not really, aks. i could be holding forward during the flash, then hold back before he fires it in time to block it. Posted by KaiSing on 01:10:2002 10:36 PM: ryu's semi infinite. here's how i set it up. Ryu with back to corner, rogue throw assist, shinkuu tatsumaki senpuu kyaku, s lp, s mp, shinkuu tatsumaki senpuu kyaku, repeat. honestly, even if i five bars, i usually don't blow them all in one combo. sometimes, i'll launch after the s mp, do an air combo topped with a hadokenXXShinkuu Hadoken. Or i can do a shin shoryuken after the s mp. Another thing i try is after the s mp, i'll walk up, throw them, call the rogue assist again as they get up, and repeat. This works relatively well against rushdown characters who will corner ryu. Just remember, a good rushdown player WILL catch on eventually and will know how to fake you out to bait rogue, then punish her. Posted by KungfuJoe on 01:11:2002 04:08 AM: Re: MvC2: My full analysis/comparison of AHVB and Ryu's TK Shinku Hadoken quote: Originally posted by KaiSing Today, i was just using my low tier team of ryu/rogue/ken against a good sent, meaning i was pretty much screwed from the start. Halfway through the match, sent pulled off a HSF. I decided to try my luck, and pulled off a TK Shinku Hadoken on reaction. To my surprise, Ryu won, and sent got beamed. I still lost the match, but it still got me thinking. Whenever i tried AHVBing the HSF on instinct, Cable would either lose or trade hits. So why the hell would ryu beat a HSF when pulling off his TK super on reaction? Then it hit me. RYU HAS FASTER RELEASE THAN CABLE ON HIS SUPER. Let's put it this way... The AHVB is one of the fastest supers in the game. We can all agree that it has instant startup. But it's obvious it doesn't have instant release/execution. Viscant covered this b4 somewhere. Example, Magneto dashes into cable, and cable pulls off AHVB on reaction when magz is right in his face, Magz can still block by holding back. As fast as AHVB is, it's not instantaneous release/execution. Ken's Shoryureppa and Juggz headcrush have instant startup AND instant release, meaning if you aren't blocking when the super screen flashes and you're right next to them, you'll eat the super. Storm's lightning storm doesn't have instant startup, but it DOES have instant release. And Ryu's TK shinku hadoken also has instant release. Let's take the same example of magz dashing in with ryu. Magz charges at ryu, ryu pulls off a TK Shinku Hadoken at point blank range. If magz isn't holding back upon the flashing screen, ryu's beam will fire into his face. Still confused? Here's some diagrams of the AHVB and the TK Shinku Hadoken. Say this is Cable's AHVB: <===========[[[[*Cable here* ******1***** Key: [[= Cable's gun. (Safe zone to be) <==== The Beam And this is ryu's TK Shinku Hadoken: (xxxxxxxxxxx-*Ryu here* *3***2**1* Key (xxx: The beam (note: diagrams not drawn to scale) as you can see, i've numbered off certain parts of each beam. Ryu's shinku hadoken has 3 quick animations before the beam fully reaches across the screen. However, section 1, point blank, is instantaneous and is released faster than part 1 of cable's AHVB. The thing about cable's beam is that it only takes one animation to reach all the way across the screen. But since it is executed more slowly, that would give time for Sent's drones to reach the safe zone before the AHVB develops, meaning cable gets hit. just something i thought i'd share. Feel free to comment, disagree, or whatever. I wonder if this can also be used the same way as cables counter as well just wondering? thanks for the info tho. Posted by KaiSing on 01:11:2002 06:55 AM: from anywhere further than a fourth of a screen, it's nowhere near as quick as ahvb. point blank, yes, but then again, why would you waste one bar for an up close shinku hadoken that'll do less damage than a regular one? Posted by Iceman on 01:11:2002 07:21 AM: I think KaiSing is right. If you are holding forward when the AHVB flashes, you can still block, unlike Shinkuu Hadoken or even Lightning Storm (of course Lightning Storm has a ton of start up and recovery). Posted by KaiSing on 01:11:2002 08:11 AM: quote: Originally posted by BlackShinobi Even if you get hit you can still roll and get up behind Ryu before he can block again. [/B] Wrong. From my experience, if he connects at full screen with a TK shinku hadoken, Ryu recovers in time to block by the time they finish rolling behind him. If you're saying that from experience, i'm guessing the one you saw was a normal jump shinku hadoken. Posted by Naslectronical on 01:11:2002 03:19 PM: quote: Originally posted by KaiSing Wrong. From my experience, if he connects at full screen with a TK shinku hadoken, Ryu recovers in time to block by the time they finish rolling behind him. If you're saying that from experience, i'm guessing the one you saw was a normal jump shinku hadoken. If you TK a shinkuu hadoken, you are in normal jump mode. Any move TK'ed is in normal jump mode. From my own experience, it is possible to roll out of a TKSH and attack Ryu before he lands. Posted by Mummy-B on 01:11:2002 06:01 PM: Unfortunately, You can't TK Shinkuu Hadouken x3. Heh. Posted by KaiSing on 01:11:2002 06:03 PM: u sure? i've done a TK shinku hadoken to counter doom's air photon array from up high by pausing b4 hitting the two punch buttons. it was a super jump. I have also done TK hadokens, and blocked on the way down. Posted by Adam*Warlock on 01:11:2002 08:05 PM: quote: Originally posted by Naslectronical If you TK a shinkuu hadoken, you are in normal jump mode. Any move TK'ed is in normal jump mode. From my own experience, it is possible to roll out of a TKSH and attack Ryu before he lands. actually, that's not true. When you do the tk motion fast enough, it puts you into super jump mode. For instance, think about Iron Man's japanese setup. after the c.mp, the reverse tk puts you into superjump. the same happens with Ryu and other TK moves, it's just that the recovery is usually so long that you hit the ground before the full recovery is complete, in effect cancelling it. It SEEMS like you're in jump mode because you don't have enough time to fall and do another move (in most cases). Posted by TS on 01:11:2002 10:09 PM: Actually...both are true, but Kai and A*W are mostly correct. The bulk of TK moves are Super Jumps...but it is possible to TK something and get a regular jump...I've done it before in XSF. Not really useful though, unless A) I'm mistaken, and regular jumps are as fast off the ground as SJs, and also B) You're playing Ryu; Jump Shinkuu Hadoken has less recovery time than the TK/SJ/Super Cancel one. Good to see another MvC2 Ryu thread...I'm sure people will have stoppeed posting by Monday, because nobody plays him or is interested in him outside of a few people... But it's still a good thread. Posted by DoomsdayKen on 01:12:2002 06:47 AM: Well, eventhough it has been answered. If Ryu Tiger Knee's a Shinkuu Hadouken, he can block on the way down. In fact he can fireball, hurricane kick, use any of his jumping normals, or do another Shinkuu Hadouken. Thats actually funny to do. Keep on doing Shinkuu Hadoukens like an inch off the ground and never land. Worthless in a real fight, butfun to do. I actually tend to use Ryu TK'ed Shinkuu Hadouken quite a bit. Either to punish Storm for trying a TyphoonXXHail Storm, or Sentinel(anything), to just tagging Ryu out. I find that it is much better TK'ing it to Super Cancel him out for the simple fact that it is harder to complete whiff. Sure sometimes a character can crouch under it, but they for the most part will have to remain motionless. Well, thats it for today. Peace y'all. Posted by KaiSing on 01:12:2002 10:07 AM: the TK shinku hadoken is also a better counter for Iron Man's proton cannon from full screen. It's pretty difficult to counter it with the ground version. Posted by KungfuJoe on 01:12:2002 04:39 PM: quote: Originally posted by KaiSing the TK shinku hadoken is also a better counter for Iron Man's proton cannon from full screen. It's pretty difficult to counter it with the ground version. could you explain how that works Posted by Naslectronical on 01:12:2002 07:20 PM: It must depend on when you hit the punch buttons. I've punished lots of Ryu players after TKSH's. I've even punished Cable players AHVB's with AHVB's of my own, as well as other TK moves. Posted by KaiSing on 01:12:2002 10:19 PM: quote: Originally posted by KungfuJoe could you explain how that works TK Shinku hadoken has faster startup. Iron Man's proton cannon has decent recovery time. I find it easier to counter a blocked proton cannon with the TK version. At full screen, Iron Man will probably recover in time to block if you use the ground version. Posted by KaiSing on 01:12:2002 10:21 PM: quote: Originally posted by Naslectronical It must depend on when you hit the punch buttons. I've punished lots of Ryu players after TKSH's. I've even punished Cable players AHVB's with AHVB's of my own, as well as other TK moves. no, it depends on how fast you do the tk motion. a quick enough motion will put you in super jump. What you need to see is that once you do a fireball motion on the joystick, the machine has the motion registered in for a while. So you can wait some time before actually pushing the two punch buttons to intiate the super. The TK motion also works in SNK games... All times are GMT. The time now is 12:04 AM. Show all 29 posts from this thread on one page Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.2.4 Copyright © Jelsoft Enterprises Limited 2000, 2001.